Thanks, Okrapod, for posting the quote you were referring to. Part of the problem is that anxiety which found its start in a serious situation, like my daughters brain tumor, leads to the body getting used to being anxious. Grief also doesnt usually show hatred towards the deceased spouse. Thanks Refugee for your feedback. The pain is awful, particularly when loved ones have been snatched away because someone foolishly chose to drink and drive. Sproul is with the Lord now. As such, faithful Instructions for Christ followers are provided should these unfortunate events occurs providing correction and certain training in righteous, that the body Christ followers would be built up properly unto the unity of the faith, unto to the glory of God Himself! Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. They dont even know anything about the treatment programs you refer to, nor will they take the time to learn. Can you imagine for one second the shame and embarrassment of having everyone know that your mom is a fall down drunk? My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled. But not everyone is an alcoholic nor should they be classified as such. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. Enter a grandparent's name. Sharon Ann Sproul Sharon Ann Sproul, age 58 years, a resident of Rt. I kind of understood what they were saying because I came from a church that was very chummy with Sproul Jr and his teachings. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. As a matter of fact, when a denomination refuses to ordain a particular person, that person can go start his own *denomination* and set himself up as its bishop and be quite successful at so doing. Albert Mohler is a Social Justice Warrior, make no mistake about it. "Who will pay for the SBCs abuse reforms over the long term? Just as people say, Guns do not kill people, people kill people. So also, alcohol is not the problem, but the people who abuse it. Erm, first time Ive ever said this but Im uncomfortable with this thread. Perhaps cushion the fall but still let them fall. People should not have to die or be maimed before our courts meet out punishments that suit the crime. I do agree that we have different views here. He has a lot of wreckage to clean up and much damage to many peoples lives. Generally will not drink around them. I think theres a mixing of apples and oranges here, and its been going on since the very start of this thread. I just figured that H.A. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. Its rude. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. When your theology is based on exclusionary principles, you have to accept the consequences when that sword cuts the other direction. I doubt I will. Actually, at the end of the day he was responsible for his choices. Sproultried to get this heard in theDrug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. One that would intervene when a pastor went this rogue? Later it was discovered that his late wife Denise either lived in a town with toxic waste problems or went to a school that had toxic waste problems. They could look up names and addresses of mental health professionals or treatment programs in their area. What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. Velour wrote: This was a wake up call. @ T J Mercer: Had he qualified and successfully completed all the requirements of the Drug Court Treatment Program he could have avoided a criminal trial altogether. Good grief, this is so annoying, Velour. Not impressed. He needs to be in treatment and his family needs to be in special support groups for dealing with an alcoholic relative and learn how to take care of themselves. Heres a quote from at least as far back as 2005. had to drop out of high school athletics in order to help his family . @ Deb: Perhaps on my wedding anniversary. is pretty controlling. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. __ I guess in a way it is a statement that is all some can make at the time, but they do it anyway. You said, When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help.. all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. Those of us who have practical life experience with alkies know theyre masters of deception, and it doesnt get any more deceptive than faking humility, remorse and repentance, something that alkies often develop much practical experience with. Two or three witnesses principle. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. If they will listen to anyone at all it has to be someone whos been there themselves. also claimed a bunch of other nonsense, none of it true in how help works.). Congratulations to your daughter and family, Darlene. For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; I speak from some experience on this. In short, Velour, I was trying to say that my experience has shaped my view of excommunication as re-defining a relationship from fellowshipping together to reasoning together. The book by the lady who is an expert on Verbal Abuse, for instance, has a chapter near the end of her book where she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Sadly, we smelled the booze again and he admitted that he was choosing to drink. @ Velour: But then there is whats known as the functional drunk or the functional alcoholic. Functional drunks tend to be over-confident of themselves and, therefore, may become reckless behind the wheel and take dangerous risks. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Many of us have suffered tragedies. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. The Bible is much more complex than just a few Scripture verses on any one topic, including the ones you have cited to justify kicking problem drinkers to the curb. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. Daisy wrote: @Deb, its hard for me to express the outrage I feel for the drunk driver who took the lives of your friends parents and for the physical and emotional suffering they inflicted on you and your friend. So many changed lives. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. 1. a serial killer, they simply enjoy all kinds of beverages because they pleasurable. Velour, much as I love you & welcome your comments here can you let this go please? Remember too, that in a church that is functioning well, there are plenty of people that have sin issues that are sincerely repentant and asking for help, and we should be giving them loving care and it may involve counseling and financial resources. A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. This thread was about RC, Jr. and his many abuse issues beyond alcoholism, though. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. The person will be encouraged to continue the behavior. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. I think its the same person. I would just like to add that many Al-Anon meetings are safe and warm places. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. The Steve Hassen Youtube link helps explain that. At some deep emotional level if I hear self medicating one more time used to minimize reasons, effects or societal responsibilities of alcohol abuseArrrgghh. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. I have always considered this site to be , for the most part, a discernment ministry that is pretty fair and doesnt make unsubstantiated allegations for the purpose of harming or hurting. Frustration, yes. That is an important element here. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. The guy is not repentant until he is caught. wrote: If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. But at the age of 15, R.C. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. I saw several psychologists and psychiatrists in person over years, and none of them diagnosed me properly, and so were unable to help me. Blessings on you, under the words of Himself about blessed are the peacemakers. In the midst of my own imperfections, it was difficult for me to find peace in my assurance. Medications did not help me, either. Here is a link: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. As soon as a young person who is telling me about an addicted parent & their behaviour finds out Ive been there the sense of relief for them is overwhelming as it means I KNOW, & that their constant embarrassment & humiliation is no stranger to me. 511 0 obj <> endobj 533 0 obj <>/Filter/FlateDecode/ID[<9723A9CD413C4B2C92544032644E85B0>]/Index[511 35]/Info 510 0 R/Length 100/Prev 987638/Root 512 0 R/Size 546/Type/XRef/W[1 2 1]>>stream I take Barbara and what she stated. Your use of we in your comment doesnt make sense to me because youre the only one to push the issue. He regained his health, went to AA, extensive counseling and stayed sober. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. After burning his bridges there he left and joined the CPC, another denom he had nothing to do with starting. We learned a lot during these years. Deb, your photos were the first thing I saw. Im comfortable with my apostasy, you make being an unbeliever sound bad. She did however advocate that people with addictions be kicked out of the church. Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. But -I think you are over-selling non-church treatment. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. I used to be a nurse so that word is familiar to me. I would say the same thing if the person was a diabetic and required insulin. (P.S. Eventually, when loved ones look the other way and/or enable the behavior of people who have drinking problems, a crisis will rear its ugly head, as it did in this case. Through the Bible, the word of God, proper and needful organization and administration are provide the body of Christ believers. Your ex-church family sounds like a bunch of cheerless people. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. 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