I say this by way of concession, not of command. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. Okay. Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. But here Strongs says brother but that could also mean half brother, right? When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? Sure. Should we baptize babies or not? Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Im not alone in believing this. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. No, it doesnt. It doesnt even imply that. Steven Christie Founder & Director / Support Coordinator / Specialist Support Coordinator / Psychosocial Recovery coach at Support Base Bendigo, Victoria, Australia 1K followers 500+ connections. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Mary had this early body. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Well, right. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. I have also appeared several ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 He was put on a cross. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? Did I have one other thing here? In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Jesus does not rebuke her. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. This is hard, isnt it? A concrete example of this would be sacrifice. So Ive got two more questions here. This is make or break time. . We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. I thought about writing a book on-. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. No. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Yep. This next question comes from [Mcart 01:28:41] 1977. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. And there, we would just debate about whether sacred tradition is a plausible source of divine revelation. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Yes. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. So probably honestly that one. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. How do we know that theyre brothers? Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. We wouldnt expect it. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Thank you very much, Trent. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. 15. You would expect there to be deviations from it. Can a person die? 0. So do it. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. And the issue too, is it discusses the word ipsum as opposed to ipsa, when it says from Genesis 15, if she will bruise the heel, or his heel will be versed, however its actually worded. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac" ( Gen 17:20-21 ). Im not sure what your question is. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. She goes on to say, My spirit rejoices in God, my savior for or because he has regarded the lowest state of his handmaiden. Mary then describes how God saves people from threats in this life by exalting the lowly or feeding the hungry. Yeah. Okay. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. And by the way, hi, Jeff. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. So Im not going to comment on that. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. So Im well aware of that. Yeah. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Enoch and Elijah were assumed into heaven. My point though was to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. For example, in Hebrews 9:27, it says that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment and this is true for basically every single human being whoever lived, except for some exceptions like Lazarus and people that Jesus raised from the dead who died twice. And I can honestly say the same thing about Mary especially with the oppression of Rome and the Jews especially after Jesus was born. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). No. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? The only son? So it still fits semantically. Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. So feel free to answer that briefly. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. Oh, its for me? Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. Oh wow. It does not show that. Not Really Of Us: Why Do Children of Christian Parents Abandon the Faith? So I would actually tell people to focus more on that. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. Lets see here. And Ill leave it at that. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! All right. And also I know others whove done a lot of work on this. So there was something sinful about Jesus? We ought to do it. He became sinner. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Trent mentioned about dying once. So I agree with that. So thats all up there as well. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. Okay. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. Thats just being read into the text. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. And this includes Mary, who Jesus saved her by redeeming and delivering her from her sins. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. And Steve has not ruled that out. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] Thats not true. He says, this is a question for Steve. . Their issue is about the authority of the church. So unlike Twitter and YouTube, Im not going to get banned from saying the sorts of things I say that go against secular dogma. Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. So theres lots of bad arguments. Although the Pharisees had authority regarding ritual practices, they did not have doctrinal authority over other Jews, including those who came to believe Jesus was the messiah. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. Thats all I got. Okay. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. And itll be really quick. 18. January 07, 1964. Okay. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Oh, youre on mute. This question comes from agoyforJesus. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. Reply to this thread. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. That sums it up. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. 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